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New Vandoren Packaging

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Here is a record of a recent exchange I had with Vandoren regarding their new packaging, which, I'll say right upfront, I very much dislike. The note I sent to them comes first, followed by a response from a M. Laurent Sultan. I will add that the quick personal response was very much appreciated, although I remain unconvinced that the (in my view dubious) benefits outweigh the disadvantages of more bulky, more inconvenient packaging. I'll leave it to M. Sultan to outline the benefits. Sorry that it's all in French. ("Le flow pack"... ya gotta love that French!) Tom ______________________________________ 16 mai 2008 Bonjours, Ça fait 40 ans que j'utilise les anches Vandoren. Je veut vous dire que je déteste le nouveau boîte. Il est trop grand. C'est trop difficile de prendre un anche. Il y a trop de jeter au poubelle. J'habite Oregon, où on a de l'humidité, de la sechesse, le froid et le chaud. J'en ai encore quelques boîtes en plastique qui sont plus que 20 ans de vieillesse. Quand je les ouvres, les anches sont magnifiques. Dîtes-moi pas qu'il faut maintenir le bois dans un atmosphere controlé! Je suis désolé, mais je commence a chercher un autre marque d'anche qui est mieux (lire: moins!) enboîté. Sincerement, Tom ------------------- Tom Bergeron Teal Creek Music website ___________________________________ 19 mai 2008 Cher Monsieur, Merci pour votre message à Vandoren et pour avoir écrit en Français. Comme vous, nous sommes sensible à notre environnement. Nous vous invitons à vous rendre à l'adresse: website Le flow pack un plus incontesté car il évite toute déformation des anches lors de leur transport et stockage. 70% de nos produits parcourent plus de 5.000 km avant d'être achetés. Les essais d'anches menées à notre usine ont tous démontré que des anches "fraîches" sonnent mieux que des anches qui ont pu se détabler lors de leur stockage, surtout dans des pays où l'hygrométrie varie fortement. L'intérêt d'un emballage individuel vient aussi du fait que la plus grande partie de la vie d'une anche a lieu avant que vous ne la jouiez. Nous recevons de nombreux commentaires positifs sur le flow pack, surtout de la part de musiciens qui voyagent beaucoup. Nous espérons que vous aussi trouverez un avantage à ce nouveau conditionnement. Sincères Salutations, Laurent Sultan, Vandoren Paris website

I also do not like the new packages. Once you open them the reeds change. I find that they are more consistent over the regular box, but they are far from the hand selects they made before. I miss those boxes why did they quit making them? I also find them to be airy, stuffy, and heavy. I usually have to work on them myself and don't like spending practice time to do that. Hand Selects where are you? Cory Barnfield Band Director Sop with LSQ Instructor Governors School for the Arts

[QUOTE=jamrightthen;161]I also do not like the new packages. Once you open them the reeds change. I find that they are more consistent over the regular box, but they are far from the hand selects they made before. I miss those boxes why did they quit making them? I also find them to be airy, stuffy, and heavy. I usually have to work on them myself and don't like spending practice time to do that. Hand Selects where are you? Cory Barnfield Band Director Sop with LSQ Instructor Governors School for the Arts[/QUOTE] I loved the hand selects. I recently purchased a box of Vandorens that were so awful, [I]not one[/I], reed was usable for a performance situation.

I don't like them either. I suspect the move was more to help their retailers than the people who play their reeds. The reason why I say this is because back in the day when I worked in a music store, like our competition we sold single reeds. People would come in and ask us to open a brand new box of reeds and then pick the two or three best reeds out of each box leaving the rest. At one point I cleaned out the "reed bin" and I must have thrown out a couple of hundred reeds no one would buy. A lot of music stores will sell the reeds no one wants to the school kids, but we didn't operate that way since we wanted the kids to like playing instead of fighting their horns. As a result there was a LOT of wasted reeds that really should have never been in the box to begin with. I've always bought by the box and accepted there will always be one or two reeds in every box that isn't playable. That's not horrible with smaller reeds like clarinet, soprano, and alto saxes, but in the boxes where there were only 5 reeds like bass clarinet, tenor, bari, and bass saxes it got pretty painful as one bad reed per box represents a 20% unplayability rate and at $30-$50 per box that's unacceptable. As a result I don't play Vandorens anymore. I like the Legere reeds for bari and bass and because I play a lot of pop and jazz, I play Rico Selects on soprano, alto, and tenor. I've been very happy with the consistency as I've yet to find one that was unplayable out of the box, and I find I don't have to spend a lot of time adjusting them. Just a quick seal after playing them for a bit and I'm good.

[QUOTE=blair;266]People would come in and ask us to open a brand new box of reeds and then pick the two or three best reeds out of each box leaving the rest. [/QUOTE] I'm aware that many believe that they can 'see' a good or bad reed, but I remain highly skeptical. There are too many variables, especially cane density, to be able to grade reeds without playing them. Also, I recently learned that #1 reeds and #5 reeds are [U]dimensionally identical[/U]. The difference is in cane density, and their stiffness is measured by a grading machine that sorts them based on a flex test. That convinced me even further that reed quality cannot be judged visually, outside of the very obvious split reed, etc.

[QUOTE=drakesaxprof;321]The difference is in cane density, and their stiffness is measured by a grading machine that sorts them based on a flex test. That convinced me even further that reed quality cannot be judged visually, outside of the very obvious split reed, etc.[/QUOTE] You're right in regards to hardness vs. reed dimensions as it is impossible to tell, which is why we depend on the manufacturer giving accurate hardness ratings. The questions being answered by a visual inspection of the reed have to do more with spotting manufacturing defects and to determine whether or not a reed is balanced. Part of the inspection process involves holding the reed up to the light to see if the "heart" is more or less centered in the vamp and looking at the "butt" of the reed to see if it's higher on one side than the other. While none of that guarantees the playability of a reed, a "balanced" reed is more likely to be playable with a minimum of adjusting than not. I've found this to be true from my own experience playing for over 30 years. As a gigging professional with a day job I don't have a lot of time to futz around with reed adjustment so it's important that I'm able to quickly determine which reeds are likely to be playable on sight. Band leaders and pit orchestra conductors don't like excuses when they're paying for your performance. I always buy by the sealed box so that doesn't bother me as much as the extra waste created by the packaging does. This hasn't really been a problem for me of late since I usually either play Legere or Rico Jazz Selects these days. I used to play Vandoren JaZZ but stopped buying them due to the packaging waste.

[QUOTE=jamrightthen;161]I also do not like the new packages. Once you open them the reeds change. I find that they are more consistent over the regular box, but they are far from the hand selects they made before. I miss those boxes why did they quit making them? I also find them to be airy, stuffy, and heavy. I usually have to work on them myself and don't like spending practice time to do that. Hand Selects where are you? [/QUOTE] I find myself spending more time working on my reeds since they switched packaging, as well. Even when I continue working on them they warp almost the very next day.I don't think the packaging helps much because once the reeds reach their destination and the package is open, it is such a climate shock. With the old packaging it was a slower adjustment for the reed and the ones that worked lasted longer because of it. For all we know the new packaging may be extending the life of the reed until it gets to us and is an attempt to cover up the declining quality of cane used. I have had the experience of playing on an unopened box of Vandoren reeds from the 70's and they made today's reeds look like sponges. For some reason all of the good cane is gone and the stuff we use just keeps getting more and more porous.

I, too, am very frustrated with the packaging. It seems as though now the blue box 3's are not truly 3's (alto). I find they play great immediately out of the packaging, but after playing on them for an hour or so most are already to the point of being too soft. I pulled out my 3's from the old packaging and they are stiffer. I recently tried a 3-1/2 strength Rico Royal (out of desperation) and found it was worse than the Vandoren. I've also tried filing down the 3-1/2 Vandorens but that doesn't always work the best either. They just don't seem to last like they used to. Ugh. Deanna

OK, first a couple of disclaimers. 1st, I'm a recent addition to the Vandoren artist roster. 2nd, with the occasional side trip into other brands, I've played Vandoren reeds since 1978. I played 3.5's on my Selmer C** until 2005, and since play 3's on my Vandoren AL4. What's changed for me with the new packaging is how I break reeds in. I used to play (the old packaging) reeds over a 4 day period, 4 or 5 minutes each day per reed, to stabilize them. Then they were ready for more extended periods of play, 30 to 40 minutes. After a couple more days, the reed could be on for the day. Now I find that after 2 of playing in, the reeds are ready to go. Not for the day right away, but for 30 minutes or so. In short, my initial break-in time has reduced by 50%. Other than that, things seem good to me. Your milage will, of course, vary: living in a relatively humid, warm climate surely makes a difference in how my reeds respond overall.

It's enough to make you want to go with another brand, isn't it? Take Hemke, for example. Most of them have this weird buzzy quality I don't like so much for classical playing, but sometimes - maybe 2 out of 5 - are great. Nice rich sound and very easy response. I've also tried Gonzalez. Terrible classical reeds, but GREAT jazz reeds. Maybe my favorite at the moment. Alexander makes a reed he calls "Classique," but I think it might still be a bit too bright for most classical purists. It's too bad they stopped making Glotin, because I liked those a lot. Anyone else out there in saxophoneland had success with other brands?

What`s wrong with Rico Royal? It has been a long while since I`ve played a Vandoren; so I can`t comment on the packaging. I stopped playing Vandoren because that brand requires a lot of work(filing and shaving). In my opinion Rico Royal is more consistent, and plays well in Jazz, Pop, and Western Art Music styles.

I spoke with a Rico Select rep last year at a convention and he told me that they had purchased the glotin machines. I've played on some 3.5's and they are ok - and cheaper than vandorens.

I agree with you about the break-in period on the new vs. old reed packaging. I used to do the same thing and took 4-5 days to break in a reed playing on it just a few minutes the first day and adding gradually to that each day. I've found now that by the time I do that my reeds are on their way downhill not uphill as far as performance quality so I've quit 'breaking them in' and just use them as is out of the box for a few days and throw it away. Clipping helps, but it still never plays the same. I, too, have tried a couple Hemke reeds and was not thrilled. I'm open to other suggestions or other ideas for reeds that work well :)

As far as playing other brands, I wish Vic Olivieri still made saxophone reeds. My private teacher during High School, Mr. Rich Nasto, found a couple of boxes of reeds from the 1940's to the 1960's. (One of them had 5 reeds for 75 cents!) I played them each in turn: Rico, Vandoren, and Vic Olivieri. The best reed I have ever played on was one of the Vic Olivieri's. That's how I know the cane was better half a century ago. Even the Ricos and the Vandorens were less porous and more vibrant.

I always wonder about those who say that the old cane is better than the new. Have you considered that maybe the old cane you played was just extremely dried out? It's hard to imagine why the plant itself would be different, since it grows from a Rhizome, which is a genetic clone of the last plant. The cut is the same as before as well. The difference is that the factory was moved from Paris to the farm where the reeds are produced, and they expanded to Argentina where for unknown reasons larger cane grows, which is why there are now 1/2 sizes in Baritone Sax reeds. As far as the "Hand Select" reeds, they were the exact same reeds as regular blue box, except that 3 women hand sized them instead of them going through the machine (AKA the Old Fashioned way). The result was that each individual would make a very consistent box, but between employees there was variation. I can only assume that these people have now retired and there is not a replacement. Vandoren is up front with the information that within a given box of reeds there is quite a bit of variation of reed stiffness, which is what people perceive as a "bad" or "good" reed. They offered a micro-sorting option if you were in Chicago or Los Angeles, but I don't know if they do that anymore. There are so many things in Music that strongly influenced by Placebo effect, and Group Think we must be careful to seperate facts and well founded theories from pure conjecture.

Here's the info from [URL="http://www.whyvandoren.com/web-content/EnvironmentInterview_VandorenDansr.pdf"]Bernard Vandoren[/URL], and plenty more information [URL="http://www.vandoren.com/en/ANIM/vandomag6en.pdf"]here[/URL] as well. My experience is that there is no difference with the packaging. They play fine after a couple of days of limited playing, and then last for several months. I'm going to play an upcoming chamber recital on reeds that I broke in last spring and early summer.

I suppose the climate where you open the packages has a lot to do with it. My spring and summer reeds do last longer than ones opened in the fall.

Have you all tried soaking your reeds? I don't mean for a few minutes, but forever. You can leave your reeds in a jar, pharmacy bottle, or any other watertight container with a mixture of water and Listerine (or some other disinfectant). I learned it from Phil Barham, who got it from Sinta. Especially in a dry climate like Colorado, I find that it negates many of the effects of inconsistency. More reeds work out of the box without shaving or clipping, and they tend to last longer. They also play a bit harder, so bear that in mind. Also, for me as a touring musician, I find that keeping my reeds "water-logged" negates some of the effects of altitude and humidity. I mean, a reed is still a reed, and they can be unpredictable. But if you're one of those folks who lives in constant fear of these little pieces of wood, you might want to give it a try.

[QUOTE=ryan;404]... I find that keeping my reeds "water-logged" negates some of the effects of altitude and humidity. [/QUOTE] I did that for a year or so with my jazz tenor reeds, and tried it with others. I eventually quit because I heard a 'dullness' of sound--lack of resonance and loss of brilliance--with the method. Depending on your tonal goals, however, it may work for a given individual, and is, like almost anything, worth a try.

My issue with that technique is that I have a mold allergy. Keeping reeds wet attracts mold. Also when I fully soaked my reeds, I have more of an issue with warping as I play because of the unevenness of the drying process.

I learned the soaking method from Larry Cook in Hawaii. I think it works really good. If one only soaks their reed for a few minutes before playing they will find that their tone quality has become much better about 1/2 hour into practice. That is impart due to the reed becoming more fully soaked after about 30 min. of playing. It takes time. Keeping your reeds soaked all the time in a mixture of mouthwash and water helps you get great tone from the get go. Larry taught, the cane, from which the reed comes is full of water before it is harvested. This full time soaking helps bring the reed back to its original state, being full of water. I have had people mention something about the reeds becoming water logged. That is hog wash. I have never had a problem with that. The one down fall, as mentioned earlier, is that the reed may loose some of its resiliency. I found that the tips wore out really fast and would break. But is solves a big problem for those living in arid climates or traveling to and from contrasting climates.

Thank you to everyone talking about the soaking method for reeds. Sometimes I forget the basics! I used to soak them with the water/mouthwash combo but d/t the extra work and fuss with being careful not to spill the water all over my bag, etc. I stopped doing it. I started using the new Vandoren reeds last Nov.... which is about the same time it started to get dry (I live in Indiana) and the longer winter lasts the dryer it gets and the worse my reeds were working. I soaked my reeds for an hour prior to using them the past few nights (rather than just 2-3 minutes) and my reeds worked great! So, I don't know if the reeds changed as well or it was just a coincidence that I started the new packaged reeds while the weather was getting dryer. I suppose I will find out by summertime when it gets hot and muggy again and I don't have to soak my reeds as long how good they work that way too.

I also face this problem. I generally try to buy reeds on ebay now. Some sellers have the really old boxes that were packaged before Vandoren changed to the individually wrapped ones. Another tip is to try unwrapping all of the reeds right when you get them, then put them back in the box and let them sit for a while. I usually buy 3-4 boxes at a time and do this. They still do not play as well as the older ones, but more consistent at least.